The Southeast Asian Treasure Connection

YAMASHITA'S / WW2 TREASURE => General Yamashita's Treasure Questions & Info => Topic started by: dred747 on April 29, 2011, 08:28:52 PM

Title: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: dred747 on April 29, 2011, 08:28:52 PM
Hi guys!

I'm a newbie to this forum.  I'm just wondering if any of you would like to share how you dealt with traps like the infamous water and sand traps.  Thanks for all those who will respond.

dred
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: wiseman on April 29, 2011, 09:23:38 PM
hi dred
there is no way to avoid sand traps and water traps. it is a big headache for treasure hunters, every experienced treasure hunters here one way or the other had experience it. it will give you multiple problems and expenditures, you must have very good engineering approach. whenever there is sand there is water too. this two combined creates a very big problem in digging. hope this helps.
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: admin on April 29, 2011, 09:39:34 PM
hi dred
there is no way to avoid sand traps and water traps. it is a big headache for treasure hunters, every experienced treasure hunters here one way or the other had experience it. it will give you multiple problems and expenditures, you must have very good engineering approach. whenever there is sand there is water too. this two combined creates a very big problem in digging. hope this helps.

Good advice, Wiseman!
TW
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: goldbar 888 on April 29, 2011, 10:29:14 PM
dred 747, here is a fine example in dealing with watertraps and sandtraps,  this hole is 80 feet deep.target anomaly physicaly verified much deeper.. 2 units of 2hp submersible pumps series connection were used to drain out the water below, now that can work BUT every time  the submersible  pump is switch off  water and sand simultaneously rises up to 3 feet in a span of one minute or so....
filling up the hole again with sand and water up to 3 feet... this hole was not like this before, the trap was encountered at 40 feet.   it is a layer of very pure fine sand with sea materials like shells. clams and corals, and a very strong water current. note that this area is a rice field and about 40 kilometers away from an ocean and 15 kilometers away from a river. i hope my experience have somewhat enlightend you....
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Elyong on April 29, 2011, 10:30:02 PM
Hi Dred,

Just be prepared for those kind of traps whenever you planned for any diggings. Check first the surrounding of your site if it is near in well, river or falls for water traps. For sand traps, if the area is within or near seashore or in tunnels too.

Another thing... the booby traps (bombs or toxic gas) should be considered also.

Good luck.

Regards,
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: dred747 on May 01, 2011, 06:39:02 PM
Thanks guys for replying.  I can see a wealth of experience from all your responses. 

I'm just wondering if applying liquid nitrogen can help? I know this approach may be a bit far-fetched but I heard that's what the Japanese tunnel engineers used when they dug the Honshu-Hokkaido tunnel some years back. Logical it seems to me.  Liquid nitrogen once applied to anything can turn the material to one solid block of ice. Gives one enough time to cement the area. Any experience with this?

Thanks again.
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: DINDO BAYAUA on May 01, 2011, 07:29:19 PM
Dred, that could be done but you have to use a special type of cement called early strength cement to seal the wall afterwards and as of now, we still do not have that kind of cement for public consumption. It says that kind of cement will cure in 2 hours time or so.
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Elyong on July 16, 2011, 01:31:01 PM

Dred747,

If your site is not within the sea shore or other areas which water is just around, I think it is also possible to look first where the water came from within the hole only, then maybe you can have it sealed first, one by one. (this is just my assumption but not yet applied and proven effective)

Regards,
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: gerald on August 12, 2011, 07:13:26 PM
Dred, that could be done but you have to use a special type of cement called early strength cement to seal the wall afterwards and as of now, we still do not have that kind of cement for public consumption. It says that kind of cement will cure in 2 hours time or so.


Good  Eve  Bro  DB/T-h44  and to  all my fellas  here.

This is  in connection with sand and water trap.
How  about in our site(Pending  Site due  for  some  reason)...  The  sand  trap/water trap is located  in the  center  of  our  hole  bro. Every time  you go forward(dig down)  the  water became  stronger.  Just like  the  water  is in the center of the hole.  But  when you  don't unearthed   the  sand, then the water is calm.    I have already  experienced  several sites  but  I have  noticed  that the water trap  is located  beside the hole. But in our  hole  it's quite different.


I hope  you  can give  me some  additional  info's bout this  bro's/sis.

GOD BLESS PO!!

 ;)

Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: gerald on August 12, 2011, 07:28:08 PM
Dred, that could be done but you have to use a special type of cement called early strength cement to seal the wall afterwards and as of now, we still do not have that kind of cement for public consumption. It says that kind of cement will cure in 2 hours time or so.


Good  Eve  Bro  DB/T-h44  and to  all my fellas  here.

This is  in connection with sand and water trap.
How  about in our site(Pending  Site due  for  some  reason)...  The  sand  trap/water trap is located  in the  center  of  our  hole  bro. Every time  you go forward(dig down)  the  water became  stronger.  Just like  the  water  is in the center of the hole.  But  when you  don't unearthed   the  sand, then the water is calm.    I have already  experienced  several sites  but  I have  noticed  that the water trap  is located  beside the hole. But in our  hole  it's quite different.


I hope  you  can give  me some  additional  info's bout this  bro's/sis.

GOD BLESS PO!!

 ;)[/quote]


""QUOTE""

In addition  to  my quote.
The water  level  here in this  area is  around 6  fathoms.   I remember  when we dig  up a certain spot   4-5 years ago  which is  i believe  14-15 feet away  in our  current  hole( still in the same  lot)  at  around  6  fathoms  still no water  or  even a drops of  it  unlike  this current hole  of ours.  Tis  current hole  of ours(Pending  for  a while  due  to some reason)    around  28feet  deep  there's already  water  but  not  strong.  But when we  reach  33 feet , even our  2  submersible pump (3hp and  2 hp) are in a hard time controlling the  water when you  go forward.
You are attacking  here like  NPA. Dig  down  for  almost  an hour if you can still control the water, and if not  then we will stop.  Then we will be attacking again..  then if  the  water  became strong again then  we will stop.  In my analysis  the water  trap  is  in the center of  the hole.  

To my fellas how  do you deal with this  one?
Your  advices will  be  highly  appreciated.

GODBLESS,

YH  GE
 :)
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: com1diver on August 19, 2011, 08:10:36 AM
Hello All,

There are numerous ways to deal with water/sand traps all are expensive.  Japanese come back to recover how do they do it? They had to have a plan to come back and recover it.  Please see my suggestions below.

1. Work with the water not against it.  It's one of the strongest forces on the planet.  If your having calm water in the beginning and it gets stronger as your going down, you are at the water level of the water table.  Keep in mind that fresh water is approximately 62.4 lbs/28.4 kg ft3 and seawater weighs approximately 64.1lbs/29.14kg ft 3.  for every foot you go down past the water table the stronger the force of water wants come in. 

2. Find the source of the water and cut it off or divert it. You may affect others around you and their source of water.

3. Use hose divers but ensure their safety by shoring, line pull signal communications, lighting and following the dive tables depending on depth and altitude.  I have these dive tables if you guys need them.  If there is sand, you'll need an airlift which can excavate very fast.  You'll need a low pressure high volume air compressor for this application.  One problem is when you remove the sand your going to affect the surrounding ground and could cause the ground to collapse (sink holes).

4. Use sheet pile to make a casson and dewater by pumps.  Seal the cassons with expanding cement http://www.thoroproducts.com/products_waterproofing.htm. (http://www.thoroproducts.com/products_waterproofing.htm.)  This also makes fast setting mortar.  I've see their products in the local hardware stores here.

All for now I hope this helps you out.
Com1diver
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: admin on August 19, 2011, 09:09:55 PM
That's awesome, Com1Diver. Thanks for your tips.
TW
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Johny Bravo on August 19, 2011, 11:18:35 PM

Thanks for the helpful tips com1diver  ;)
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: raquel_lyks on August 20, 2011, 07:45:53 AM
additional tips, thanks for that com1diver.. :D

Raqz ;)
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: gerald on August 27, 2011, 05:39:16 PM
Hello All,

There are numerous ways to deal with water/sand traps all are expensive.  Japanese come back to recover how do they do it? They had to have a plan to come back and recover it.  Please see my suggestions below.

1. Work with the water not against it.  It's one of the strongest forces on the planet.  If your having calm water in the beginning and it gets stronger as your going down, you are at the water level of the water table.  Keep in mind that fresh water is approximately 62.4 lbs/28.4 kg ft3 and seawater weighs approximately 64.1lbs/29.14kg ft 3.  for every foot you go down past the water table the stronger the force of water wants come in. 

2. Find the source of the water and cut it off or divert it. You may affect others around you and their source of water.

3. Use hose divers but ensure their safety by shoring, line pull signal communications, lighting and following the dive tables depending on depth and altitude.  I have these dive tables if you guys need them.  If there is sand, you'll need an airlift which can excavate very fast.  You'll need a low pressure high volume air compressor for this application.  One problem is when you remove the sand your going to affect the surrounding ground and could cause the ground to collapse (sink holes).

4. Use sheet pile to make a casson and dewater by pumps.  Seal the cassons with expanding cement http://www.thoroproducts.com/products_waterproofing.htm. (http://www.thoroproducts.com/products_waterproofing.htm.)  This also makes fast setting mortar.  I've see their products in the local hardware stores here.

All for now I hope this helps you out.
Com1diver



Thanks  for  the  tips  bro.
In  T-Hunting  the crucial  stage  is  the presence of   find sand layer and  water.
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Oliver on September 23, 2011, 04:53:49 PM
if u encounter large amount of volume of water in your hole... 1st, u are in a wrong way.. remember that japs buried their treasures and coded it with maps.. so they know where to recover it in an easiest way. 2nd, if u think ur in the right way with markers and live pointer... dam it!!! (sand bags etc)
 
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: gerald on September 23, 2011, 08:59:51 PM
if u encounter large amount of volume of water in your hole... 1st, u are in a wrong way.. remember that japs buried their treasures and coded it with maps.. so they know where to recover it in an easiest way. 2nd, if u think ur in the right way with markers and live pointer... dam it!!! (sand bags etc)
 

Good  Eve  Fellas.

That's  your  opinion brother.

But   why is  it  that  in  a site  that I  have  known  the target  is  recovered  around  36-40 feet  and   the  water  is  very strong.  They even used  2 PUMPS,  the 2 hp  sub-pump  and 1hp  sub-pump.  It's  no joke...   Kasi may actual  recovery  ito..

They even  fail  to recover  the cemented  vault  because  the last  layer  below-->(that  Boracay Sand)  slowly  collapse.

I don't  think they  might  be  wrong  because  the target  is recovered  in the  center  with a little  drifting.
Just my opinion also.


God  Bless,

GE
 :)
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Matthew633 on September 24, 2011, 03:29:30 AM
Hi sir! we reach the water level of the hole and there is also a presence of alkitran at 11m. The diggers say that they encounter a muddy type of after the sand and alkitran. Is this normal? In your experience does it mean that we reach now the target?
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: boylara on September 24, 2011, 01:24:11 PM
nope
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: kimsusan on April 18, 2012, 11:25:52 AM
Hello fellow TH aficionados!

This Topic is quite old but i would like to share anyway relevant information in dealing with water/sand trap through shoring and diving. Please remind me if im off-topic.

Attached picture, hole.jpg,  is my site with two holes with RC cylindrical culvert used for shoring. Both holes are failed missions. My 1st hole(farther right) was a medium-driven project. Method of detection of the target was thru a dowsing stick (paranormal/spiritual verified by at least 4 more mediums) and purportedly validated by an OKM FUture 2003 Rover C GPR. I was new then in TH. it was very costly as it took us 6 months(continuous) to complete and at first we utilized several methods of excavation/recovery before we settled with shoring and diving method. All sorts of obstacles were encountered related to  diving and dredging (have to suck out the soils and others elements to give way to the culvert shoring to sink deeper down) but we never quit until we reached the 48ft(14.4m) target as qualified by the GPR. We found out that at that level it was a mineralised soil so "makunat" (malleable or ductile, not sure of the translation) and hard which my diver initially thought was the object coz our water-jet piercing mechanism(sunda or pantusok) would hardly dig through. thats when i learnt how to dive myself for verification. It's a grayish clay or clay-like mineralised soil that when dried will look like a cement which can be easily be pulverised when smashed. Negative! Not the treausure vault we were expecting. The culvert is already hanging by 6ft by its tip over a hard but malleable, highly-dense clay layer by layer as thick as 2 feet (in between layers are suspected magnetite sands a few inches thick, just a theory) per layer. We're not sure whats still in beneath sO the project was stop for further detection. THats when i started my 2nd hole at the same site.

The prospected target was redetected thru a Molecular Frequency detector. Its the most i can find within my area besides the detectorist have a few finds using this detector, according to him. The detectorist who is an ECE engineer practicing in the USA and an experienced THer himself explained to me about the limitations of GPR with respect to soil conductivity. Despite openly warned by him about the consequences and though hesitant coz its a half scientific-detected project, the 2nd hole(closer-left in hole.jpg) was dug. Same process of digging, shoring, diving and dredging(no pumping out of water) was employed until we reached 22 ft. Knowingly, since i did most of the diving and dredging myself to gain first hand information, that level surfaced the first layer of highly-dense clay beneath water level. Now i was aware that at 22ft (with respect to my site, approximately 16ft below water level) thats the first layer of clay(bluish-gray, malleable). At that point, I theorized that it may not be possible for a less than a tonner or a few more tons of treasure vault to penetrate thru that hard surface of clay. Despite being reluctant we broke thru the 2ft thick clay and next was all sand. Being soft and penetratable, we cleared the path and decided to thrust it with a 20ft long 1/2" GI pipe to reach that 48ft 2nd layer of clay. Again no treasure vault felt. Project terminated after 4 weeks!

Fellow THers, this is a classic example of how frustrating this endeavor cud be for us hunters. Yet as the saying goes "the easiest way to failure is through quiting". No matter how "perfectly" we do our homeworks (history of prospect sites, livepointers, markers and signs, paranormal, scientific, faith, human relation, determination, etc, btw, no maps) there is always something missing in the formula. As far as my experience is concern, I guess there is no sure formula but i believe there are 3 main components of a successful T'hunting orderly named as follows:
1) Accuracy of detection (locate, validate, qualify and quantify with supporting data, information and knowledge for decision making)
2) Process of Recovery/Excavation (choosing the right methodology depending on location ie mountainous, plains, etc)
3) Proper disposal of finds (even Marcos had difficulties selling/disposing his)
Should i was lucky with the accuracy of the detection, i cud have got it in case there was really hidden treasure in my site, but with many other challenges of course.  I guess i did my part well, more or less, on the process of recovery as far as similar projects like mine is concern. Similarly, for water or sand trap, we cud try shoring our hole with rigid structure like culvert for divers to safely dredge out the soil and allow us to go deeper in our diggings. Its a manual cost-effective solution once water level is reach and target prospect is relatively deeper.

Pardon me for this lenghty post. i hope my personal experience wud be useful to other prospective diggers.

more power to all and may all of us succeed in our endeavors.




Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: yamideo on April 18, 2012, 11:43:14 AM
We have lots of bentonite clay deposit in the phils. same components needed for demolition agents but i am not sure about the grade. just my 2 cents.

Sodium bentonite
Sodium bentonite expands when wet, absorbing as much as several times its dry mass in water. Because of its excellent colloidal properties,[1] it is often used in drilling mud for oil and gas wells and for geotechnical and environmental investigations.
The property of swelling also makes sodium bentonite useful as a sealant, especially for the sealing of subsurface disposal systems for spent nuclear fuel[2] and for quarantining metal pollutants of groundwater. Similar uses include making slurry walls, waterproofing of below-grade walls, and forming other impermeable barriers, e.g., to seal off the annulus of a water well, to plug old wells, or to line the base of landfills to prevent migration of leachate. It is also used to form a barrier around newly planted trees to constrain root growth so as to prevent damage to nearby pipes, footpaths and other infrastructure.
Sodium bentonite can also be "sandwiched" between synthetic materials to create geo-synthetic clay liners (GCL) for the aforementioned purposes. This technique allows for more convenient transport and installation, and it greatly reduces the volume of sodium bentonite required.
Various surface modifications to sodium bentonite improve some rheological or sealing performance in geoenviromental applications, for example, the addition of polymers.[3]
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Angelvictory on April 18, 2012, 11:21:56 PM
Sir Yamideo,
Could you tell us where we could get this type of Bentonite clay?. This might be the answer to my water trap challenge. Right now the water pump is still managing the water inflow/outflow. But it will be nice if we could stop it completely.
Thank you
Victor
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Angelvictory on June 25, 2012, 06:31:13 PM
Hi Everyone,
I followed the advice of using clay and dam the opening on the side wall with sand bags, up to 14 sand bags layer.. widen the hole where the water and sand trap are coming out and use two 5 hp water pumps.
In essence we were releasing the water and fine layer of sand slowly and negate it's force in the process.
As we widen the hole of the water/sand trap it reveals a huge cavern filled with more fine sand, tunnel and cavity system. so we continue taking out the fine layer of sand in our dig site, about a truck load already.
There is a layer of concrete after this fine layer of sand at 27 feet. The fine layer of sand is about 6 feet thick. Everytime we reached 25 feet level it triggers the water and sand inundating our dig site until we use the sand bagging technique and controlled water flow with our pumps.
We are next to a river approximately 100 yards. We didn't think the water is coming from the river.
Any thoughts from the experts.? I just want to share my experience
Thanks
Victor
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Angelvictory on July 18, 2012, 06:30:15 PM
Hello Everyone,
For about 3 weeks we were emptying  our dig site of fine sand after each controlled burst of water from the trap.
Finally the  sand trap get emptied and the huge cavern where the sand where contained were now a big cavern.
We decided to fence the entrance/exit opening of the water/sand trap cavern with several layers of bamboo material.
An hour later after we completed the bamboo fence, the whole sand trap cavern start collapsing.. so we decided to wait until the cavern settled on its own, knowing that water will cause more erosion.
A week later the whole cavern collapsed and our bamboo fence hold the rock slides from the cavern.
Good thing we wait for now we have another challenge , more rocks that potentially dangerous to the digging crew..
And now our hole is enormously huge..approximately from 45 feet long by 15 feet wide 25 feet deep to 70 feet long 30 feet wide and depth has to be determine in half of the hole..because the bamboo fence is holding them in place.
We're working on removing all potential rocks slides and in so doing the site reveal more markings, heart shape stones, sleeping turtles, shell (cabibe shape stones) pointing to several positive detector scan .
I took notes of every stone markings and correlate them with deep penetrating radar scan results before we started digging and they are getting exciting because it correspond to above results.
I'm sharing these because I learn that one needs to expect the next results of water/sand trap design by following your instinct and common sense, applying the law of gravity and force of water, timing its burst and deciding corrective measures accordingly.
 I call it a chess game in process and you and your digging crew have to be alert for the next move.
Good hunting guys
Victor
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: yamideo on July 19, 2012, 08:30:12 AM
Sorry i did not notice your earlier post on where to get bentonite clay. I cannot find my directory of mineral deposits in the philippines but surely we have it at the bureau of mines or DENR. There are several bentonite clay deposites that i saw in different areas here but i cannot recall anymore. I am wondering about your site and signs you have there. Can you post some pictures. Thanks.
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Angelvictory on July 20, 2012, 07:16:39 PM
Hi Sir Y
I posted some pictures and it disappear in the web..
I will try again next time I have more time..
Victor
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Angelvictory on July 21, 2012, 04:36:07 PM
Ok I found out why I can't pictures.. my data is over 4000 KB and I don't know how to make it smaller.
I will try until I'm able to do it.
 Meantime I will appreciate any suggesstion
Thanks
Victor
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: yamideo on July 21, 2012, 08:10:44 PM
if you have microsoft office picture manager program installed open the file with it and click on edit pictures a toolbar will appear on the rightside use change picture size on lower rightside and click on resize (75%, 50% or 25%). there are other programs that can do this. Regards.
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Angelvictory on July 30, 2012, 12:03:02 PM
Sorry I'm still having issues about downloading pictures from the different internet cafe.
 Can't get it done properly. I'm still learning. It's easier to email but it will be big file that the forum will not accept. I try again next time..very busy with the project
Thanks
Victor
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Angelvictory on August 06, 2012, 04:56:35 PM
Ok..I tried again last night and I lost all my data in the computer while downloading them
This time I will figure it out how to recover those pictures.
At this point,. they are just memories ..No need to get upset..
Live and learned till next time.
Victor
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: yamideo on August 06, 2012, 08:26:52 PM
no problem. but maybe you should ask the 5th grader to do it.  ;D
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Angelvictory on October 08, 2012, 02:10:09 PM
Thanks for the suggestion and I probably will ask a 5th grader.. they are sooo.. computer savvy..
Meantime my focus is on the ongoing project..
In due time  I will share my TH adventures without hesitation...
My respect to all of you who maintain this forum civil..
Victor
Title: Re: TRAPS: How to deal with water and/or sand traps?
Post by: Daniel Agre on August 02, 2016, 06:28:03 PM
Gd day fellow THs! its nice to know that were not only one to encounter water and sand traps on the hole. Our method of overcoming the said traps is by way of creating diverting point of the water and likewise captured its volume via 6HP Water Pump wherein the input hose- size was reduce to "1" from being "4" to make the pumping out of the water containable. By this, we made continue our digging while water together with the sand are being pumped out of the hole. The mouth of the input tubings was reduced and made as forming like a coke bottle size wherein no obstruction was felt by sipping power of our water pump. We used steel formed mouth of input tubes while the outgoing tubes was left undisturbed of its size. First to insure is to know if the water has no chemical contamination that will make your skin very "makati" and likewise will suffer super itchiness.