Author Topic: Gold Bar CALCULATING Formula  (Read 11623 times)

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Offline zan

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Gold Bar CALCULATING Formula
« on: October 30, 2009, 08:51:45 PM »

Thanks, Tony, for your website.  A lot of good stuff here.  Sorry, I haven't posted to any message board in quite a few years, so I thought I'd give it a try.  I wanted to post something about using density (specific gravity) to identify real vs. fake gold, but couldn't find an appropriate board here.  Maybe we should have a section on scams and how to avoid them.  Please feel free to relocate this post if desired.

I am a US citizen living in Makati now for about a year (this trip).  I've been in the treasure business here in the Philippines since 1997.  I have an ad at http://truegold.sulit.com.ph which outlines the stuff I and my partners are interested in buying.  Stuff like ABL, PVN, Uncut Dollars, "Wells Fargo", etc., even gold.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

FORMULA TO CALCULATE INGOT DENSITY

The formula for calculating the volume of an ingot-shaped gold bar requires a little calculus.  (Now, listen up, because I was supposedly the #7 math student in the state of Texas (US) my Junior year of high school.)  A normal rectangular bar would be the simple length x width x height, of course.  But, those angles on many of the bars we examine can make things quite confusing.

Here's how to do it EXACTLY:

1.  Make sure all your measurements are in millimeters. then divide them by 10 to get centimeters.  We are aiming for total cubic centimeters (cc), so this is important.  

2.  You will need 5 measurements:
    W1 = width of the larger bottom surface
    L1 = length of the larger bottom surface
    W2 = width of the smaller top surface
    L2 = length of the smaller top surface
    H = vertical height (Note: this is NOT the diagonal edge.  Place the bar upside down on a table to measure accurately)

3.  To make a long story short (skipping the calculus), the formula is the height times the average horizontal cross-section area:
    V = (H/6) x (2xL1xW1 + 2xL2xW2 + L1xW2 + L2xW1)

4.  Then weigh the bar as exactly as possible in grams.  Don't use one of those cheap spring scales.  A nice digital scale (like a luggage scale) is great.

5. Divide the grams by the cc and you have the density or specific gravity.  Real WWII Au will be around 18 g/cc.  Pure gold, of course, is more like 19.3.

6.  Don't be fooled by gold-plated Tungsten (W), which has essentially the same density of Au, but much harder.  You should be able to drive a nail into real Au.

Here's a guy who agrees with my calculation:
   http://dfollett76.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/found-gold-barformula/

You can also ask the question on any number of Math/Calculus Expert sites, if you have doubts.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 08:14:52 PM by admin »

Offline admin

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 04:41:28 AM »
Zack,

Good to hear from you and welcome aboard.

I think I've already put all that gold bar calculation on my drawings and spread sheets but thanks for putting it here also.

Good luck with all of that and hope you can have some safe and successful transactions.

TW

Offline cap miwa

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 01:00:20 PM »
Hi Zan,
I know you. We've met. I came to see you in your penthouse suite. I'll see you again in a short while. I'm just finishing some obligations.
Regards to you and God bless.

Angel_09

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 02:04:41 PM »
In support and complement of Zan's calculation, I'm adding additional method if the ingot or bar is irregular.

Water displacement procedure:

1. get  a container that is even in size (square or cylindrical) and can easily make graduation on its side.
2. Put water in the container and mark its level.
3. Put the ingot or bar in container with water.
4. Observe the rise of water in the container and mark.
5. Remove the ingot or bar, (the water will return from its original level) measure the difference from the first marking to the last marking.
6. If the container is square or rectangle, use the simple formula, V=L X W H / If the container is cylindrical, use the formula, V = 0.7854 x D square x Height (height is the measured displacement).

7. Once the volume is obtained, Zan's calculation can be applied:

A.  Then weigh the bar as exactly as possible in grams.  Don't use one of those cheap spring scales.  A nice digital scale (like a luggage scale) is great.

B.  Divide the grams by the cc and you have the density or specific gravity.  Real WWII Au will be around 18 g/cc.  Pure gold, of course, is more like 19.3.

C.  Don't be fooled by gold-plated Tungsten (W), which has essentially the same density of Au, but much harder.  You should be able to drive a nail into real Au.

Angel



Offline admin

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2009, 08:13:50 PM »
Angel,

That's exactly right. I had forgotten about the water displacement procedure. I have actually done that before and it works perfect and is very precise.

Cheers,
TW

Offline zan

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2009, 03:56:58 PM »
You can buy a graduated cylinder at National Bookstore.  They have various sizes, but not usually large enough for a gold bar.  They are perfect, however, for a handful of alleged diamonds that might be up for sale.  Just take care that you are analyzing dry gemstones and to shake out all the air bubbles.  The density of real diamonds will be 3.520.01 g/ml.

Perhaps a larger beaker would be better for gold bars, but to cut expenses, a cylindrical can should work fine, as suggested above.  Just measure the difference in the two water levels and multiply by pi*r^2, where r is the radius (half of the diameter).

For example:
  Rise in water= 12.3 cm
  Inside diameter of can = 19.3 cm

  Then:
    V = rise x pi x (19.3/2) x (19.3/2)
    V = 12.3 x 3.14159 x 93.1225
    V = 3598.4 cc  or 3.5984 liters

A real gold bar of this size should weigh about 18 g/cc (or 18 kg/liter), so we would expect 18 x 3.5984 kg (~ 65 kg).




Offline admin

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2009, 07:31:35 AM »
Zan,

Great. Thanks for the lesson. I hope everyone got and understood all of that.

TW

Offline zan

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2009, 11:09:35 PM »

Angel_09's formula is just as good, or even simpler.  V = pi/4 x (D squared) x height of rise.  V=0.7854 x D^2 x height.

Tony, actually your spreadsheet for ingot volume gives only an approximate.  The karat estimates are off as well.  It seems that the spreadsheet neglects the fact that the impurities have weight as well as the Au. Of course, the impurities are much less dense, but they are not negligible.  I'll try to post something soon on how to more accurately estimate karat vs density.


Offline zan

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2009, 10:22:17 PM »

Here is how to estimate karat (k) and fineness (parts per thousand, f) if all you have is the density (d) of a bar:

First, the density of Au is well-established at 19.32 g/cc. 

We don't know what the impurities are by looking at a bar, but let's assume typical impurities such as silver, platinum, and copper.  We can reckon Pt similar to Au because it is of about the same density and value, so let's treat Pt as a welcome impurity.  This leaves Ag and Cu as the relatively worthless impurities.  An estimated mix of equal parts (500 Ag / 500 Cu) would have a density of 9.665 g/cc for the Ag-Cu impurity alone.

Skipping the math, we get:

     k = 48.02 - 464.14/d  (should give number from 0 to 24)
     f = 2001 - 19339/d    (should give number from 000.0 to 999.9)

To check the formula, a density of 19.32 should give us 24K and/or 999.9 fineness.  These formula actually give us 23.996K and 1000.017 fineness (both well within 1% of exact).

A density of 9.665 (all impurity, zero Au) should give us 0K and/or 000.0.  These formula actually give us -0.003K and 000.069 fineness (both well within 1% of exact).

So, they are slightly off, but then it is doubtful the impurities are exactly equal parts Ag and Cu anyway.




Offline treescav

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 04:55:04 PM »
zan,
Im newbies in this site.
I did just get your message that u are a buyer of gold.. its already now im searching forsome like u...
I did post some story about where i can get the gold... surely we can get it if someone like u can help us..
I can show u the site in picture and u may know how u could help email me lumapas_roel@yahoo.com
For more details..

Thanks, Tony, for your website.  A lot of good stuff here.  Sorry, I haven't posted to any message board in quite a few years, so I thought I'd give it a try.  I wanted to post something about using density (specific gravity) to identify real vs. fake gold, but couldn't find an appropriate board here.  Maybe we should have a section on scams and how to avoid them.  Please feel free to relocate this post if desired.

I am a US citizen living in Makati now for about a year (this trip).  I've been in the treasure business here in the Philippines since 1997.  I have an ad at http://truegold.sulit.com.ph which outlines the stuff I and my partners are interested in buying.  Stuff like ABL, PVN, Uncut Dollars, "Wells Fargo", etc., even gold.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

FORMULA TO CALCULATE INGOT DENSITY

The formula for calculating the volume of an ingot-shaped gold bar requires a little calculus.  (Now, listen up, because I was supposedly the #7 math student in the state of Texas (US) my Junior year of high school.)  A normal rectangular bar would be the simple length x width x height, of course.  But, those angles on many of the bars we examine can make things quite confusing.

Here's how to do it EXACTLY:

1.  Make sure all your measurements are in millimeters. then divide them by 10 to get centimeters.  We are aiming for total cubic centimeters (cc), so this is important.  

2.  You will need 5 measurements:
    W1 = width of the larger bottom surface
    L1 = length of the larger bottom surface
    W2 = width of the smaller top surface
    L2 = length of the smaller top surface
    H = vertical height (Note: this is NOT the diagonal edge.  Place the bar upside down on a table to measure accurately)

3.  To make a long story short (skipping the calculus), the formula is the height times the average horizontal cross-section area:
    V = (H/6) x (2xL1xW1 + 2xL2xW2 + L1xW2 + L2xW1)

4.  Then weigh the bar as exactly as possible in grams.  Don't use one of those cheap spring scales.  A nice digital scale (like a luggage scale) is great.

5. Divide the grams by the cc and you have the density or specific gravity.  Real WWII Au will be around 18 g/cc.  Pure gold, of course, is more like 19.3.

6.  Don't be fooled by gold-plated Tungsten (W), which has essentially the same density of Au, but much harder.  You should be able to drive a nail into real Au.

Here's a guy who agrees with my calculation:
   http://dfollett76.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/found-gold-barformula/

You can also ask the question on any number of Math/Calculus Expert sites, if you have doubts.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 09:33:54 PM by admin »

Offline boylara

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Re: Greetings
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 07:30:20 PM »
hey Zan yu Zach Anderson of figure 8....????
"So Near Yet So Far"

bovic32

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Re: Wells Fargo
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2011, 08:49:11 PM »
zan,
Im newbies in this site.
I did just get your message that u are a buyer of gold.. its already now im searching forsome like u...
I did post some story about where i can get the gold... surely we can get it if someone like u can help us..
I can show u the site in picture and u may know how u could help email me lumapas_roel@yahoo.com
For more details..

Thanks, Tony, for your website.  A lot of good stuff here.  Sorry, I haven't posted to any message board in quite a few years, so I thought I'd give it a try.  I wanted to post something about using density (specific gravity) to identify real vs. fake gold, but couldn't find an appropriate board here.  Maybe we should have a section on scams and how to avoid them.  Please feel free to relocate this post if desired.

I am a US citizen living in Makati now for about a year (this trip).  I've been in the treasure business here in the Philippines since 1997.  I have an ad at http://truegold.sulit.com.ph which outlines the stuff I and my partners are interested in buying.  Stuff like ABL, PVN, Uncut Dollars, "Wells Fargo", etc., even gold.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

FORMULA TO CALCULATE INGOT DENSITY

The formula for calculating the volume of an ingot-shaped gold bar requires a little calculus.  (Now, listen up, because I was supposedly the #7 math student in the state of Texas (US) my Junior year of high school.)  A normal rectangular bar would be the simple length x width x height, of course.  But, those angles on many of the bars we examine can make things quite confusing.

Here's how to do it EXACTLY:

1.  Make sure all your measurements are in millimeters. then divide them by 10 to get centimeters.  We are aiming for total cubic centimeters (cc), so this is important.  

2.  You will need 5 measurements:
    W1 = width of the larger bottom surface
    L1 = length of the larger bottom surface
    W2 = width of the smaller top surface
    L2 = length of the smaller top surface
    H = vertical height (Note: this is NOT the diagonal edge.  Place the bar upside down on a table to measure accurately)

3.  To make a long story short (skipping the calculus), the formula is the height times the average horizontal cross-section area:
    V = (H/6) x (2xL1xW1 + 2xL2xW2 + L1xW2 + L2xW1)

4.  Then weigh the bar as exactly as possible in grams.  Don't use one of those cheap spring scales.  A nice digital scale (like a luggage scale) is great.

5. Divide the grams by the cc and you have the density or specific gravity.  Real WWII Au will be around 18 g/cc.  Pure gold, of course, is more like 19.3.

6.  Don't be fooled by gold-plated Tungsten (W), which has essentially the same density of Au, but much harder.  You should be able to drive a nail into real Au.

Here's a guy who agrees with my calculation:
   http://dfollett76.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/found-gold-barformula/

You can also ask the question on any number of Math/Calculus Expert sites, if you have doubts.

Hope this helps.


Zan,
 Im new also in this forum,you touch about wells fargo,last year my friend asking me if there is buyer of wells fargo, I said I do not know who is the buyer, I thought if you want I can communicate my friend somewhere in mindanao, I see already this box but I doubt if it is real,I didnt take a picture but if you want I just tell again my friend.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 09:35:26 PM by admin »

DINDO BAYAUA

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Re: Gold Bar CALCULATING Formula
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 10:57:22 PM »
In reply to 4 emails sent to me on how to more accurately calculate the volume of a gold bar without committing marginal error in calculating the volume using the dimensions of the bar, it is much advice to use the so called water displacement method:

Materials: - a square or rectangular container (I suggest a tupperware tumbler & be sure that the bar to be tested could be totally submerged)
              - A graduated cylinder (you may barrow one from a nearby laboratory of high school)
              - A catch basin
              - 2 feet of fishing line (tie the gold bar on one end of the line);
              - Weighing Scale
              - and of course, the target gold bar
          
Procedure:
      1. Fill the rectangular container with water up to the brim. Then pour the water into the catch basin and measure its content by using a graduated cylinder in cc (cubic centimeter). Mark it as Volume1;
      2. Fill up again the rectangular container with water up to the brim, then submerged the target tied gold bar into the container. Let the water spill over (be sure to put the catch basin below to catch the spilled water). Then slowly pull up the target tied gold bar out of the container;
      3. Measure the spilled over water on the catch basin by using the graduated cylinder. Record this as Volume1-b;
      4. Measure the remaining water on the container by again using the graduated cylinder. Record this as Volume2;
      5. Volume1 - Volume2 = Volume of the gold bar (in cc)
      6. The computed volume of the gold bar should be equal to Volume1-b
      7. Weigh the target gold bar in grams. [kilo multiplied by 1000 to make it in grams]
      8. Weight divided by the computed volume of the gold bar = Specific gravity [in grams/cubic centimeter]
      9. Specific gravity of gold is from 18 to 19.32 grams/cc
     10. Compare the computed SG to the standard SG. Just be informed that WW2 gold mostly have a SG ranging from 18 to 18.78, while a pure gold (24 karats) has a SG of 19.32.

NOTE that we are calculating in grams and centimeter so a little difference in kilograms and meter would mean a big difference in grams and centimeter calculation.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 09:33:25 AM by DINDO BAYAUA »

Offline troubleshooter

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Re: Gold Bar CALCULATING Formula
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2011, 06:53:53 AM »
Gold prices feed fever on Philippine mountain
http://ph.news.yahoo.com/gold-prices...
"we seek the truth" "no one is above the law, the law maybe harsh but it is the law"

Offline admin

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Re: Gold Bar CALCULATING Formula
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2011, 08:57:42 AM »
Gold prices feed fever on Philippine mountain
http://ph.news.yahoo.com/gold-prices...

It says PAGE NOT FOUND...
TW