Author Topic: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.  (Read 5750 times)

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Offline vince

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Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« on: September 23, 2010, 10:20:37 AM »
There are several ways in removing water from hole. One is to use pail, other use water pumps. There are 2 types of water pump, one is engine driven and the other is electric driven. In engine driven common sense dictates that it can not be used inside the hole, because of the fumes develop by the engine during combustion. It is the cause of most death by treasure hunters, suffocation from exhaust gases from the engine. This fact limits the use of this pump on the top. However, this reduced the pumping capacity of the pump whateverhorsepower it has.
If the hole is too deep, it is best to use submersible pump, electric driven. And performance is more efficient compared to engine driven.

Offline vince

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2010, 08:49:55 PM »
In big treasure hunting projects that exceeds 100feet in height, it is advisable to use three phase submersible pump instead of a very high horsepower single phase. The power impulse of a three phase pump is more smoother than a single phase where it recieves power impulse /120^0. The discharge of a submersible pump can be connected in series with an ordinary pump. Since the total dynamic head of a submersible pump starts from suction up to discharge side, the centrifugal pump connected to it will lessen the suction lift, thus increasing the discharge head of the centrifugal pump without suffering the volumetric output of the pump.
The generator to be used with this pump must be rated (if not know) by using rule of the thumb. Due to reactive loading of pumps, the generator must be rated X 3 of its current rating or X 6 if it is DOL. If more than one pump is used, plus with other auxiliary equipment, three phase gen. set is more appropiate because load can be balanced in its three phases, thus giving smooth operation.

t_hunter44

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2010, 04:28:12 AM »
    True, 3 phase is more efficient but try acquiring a 3ph Generator and Portable at that and 3 ph Submersible pumps and Drills and jackhammers in your local hardware store. 3 Phase is mostly for commercial application and portable 3 ph Genset voltage is 203V or 480V and 10HP and above, even an ordinary household does not have 3 phase so even if you can find a 3 ph portable equipment, you cannot even use it at home.

Offline vince

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2010, 07:10:59 AM »
three phase generator is not exclusive for three phase electrical equipment only. Since 3 phase gen. set can be delta or Y connection, it became versatile regarding its application. In Y configuration, single phase equipment can be used and can also be connected to a 3 phase generator by using line to neutral. If 3 single phase equipment are to be connected in this generator, the 3 phases can be utilized to balanced the total load current, thus preventing higher load current such as when using a single phase generator, which definitely affects the size of the power cables.
In single phase generator, the total load current is the sum of all load current consumed by all equipment, while in 3 phase generator, designed current capacity of each phase are all equal.

Offline ghost

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 08:37:39 AM »
Vince, based on your explanation, can a 5 hp 3 phase genset with Y and delta outlet can provide enough power for such since current is constant on delta outlet (when using 3 ph) and sum of all current used in Y for single ph? Can I use both phases in one given time without overloading the capacity (subpump, electpump, drill) lets say 1 or 2 of this is 1 phase? Just asking for I'm considering buying 3 ph with delta and Y outlets. :-\

Angel_09

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 09:48:37 AM »
Hi Ghost, please allow me to intercede with this topic.
In my opinion, if you will buy a 3 phase generator, first, you have to determine what are the electrical equipment you needed to be powered by this generator and determine the total load current. You need to identify if these are single phase or 3 phase, then calculate the total current draw of all these tools. Once you determine the total current draw, multiply it by 3 times so that the generator will not stall during starting.  Once you determine the calculated current, you can calculate the kilowatts and divide by .8 (power factor) to get the KVA.

If you are using a single phase tools, you cannot use 2 of the phases since the voltage is line to line, thus will give you higher voltage.

If for example, you have a 415V 3 phase generator Y connection, voltage distribution are as follows: L1 to L2 = 415V;  L2 to L3 = 415V and L3 to L1 = 415V.  L1 to Neutral = 239V L2 to Neutral = 239V and L3 to neutral = 239V. With these, using line to line (both phases) with a single phase tool is not feasible due to voltage difference.

However, 3 phase generator can be rewired from 3 phase Y connection, 3 phase delta connection or single phase connection.

My 2 cents.

Offline golden boy

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2010, 02:03:26 PM »

in our project we use single phase coupled 3 horsepower submersible pumps and 1 centrifugal pump in the upper portion of the hole. thru this method, water can be pump even at 280 ft deep.

Angel_09

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2010, 02:37:50 PM »
There is nothing fancy about TDH of pump. Submersible pumps are classified as single stage or multistage. The latter refers to pumps having multiple pumps connected in series with common shaft. It boost the pressure and displacement thus increasing the total dynamic head. The maximum height of water delivered by any pump plus the total dynamic head of the succeeding pump will increase its displacement height, however, as displacement height increases, displacement volume decreases.

Offline ghost

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2010, 11:45:34 AM »
Angel_09
   Thanks bro for the explanation. Lot of help on consideration for buying one (but have to be rewired to accomodate both single and three phase electrical equipment). May PM you when time to buy one and need technical advice for such. Thanks again bro. :)

Angel_09

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2010, 02:11:08 PM »
Ghost,
 I will try to make a drawing illustrating the difference between 3 Phase and single phase gen. set. This will include
calculated values as a reference. I hope this will be of help.

Offline ghost

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2010, 02:22:26 PM »
Angel_09
   That would be of great help bro. One question only, can we convert some current of a 3 phase to single phase on a 3 phase gen set (with some modification on the terminal just to accomodate single and three phase)? Thanks again bro.

Angel_09

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2010, 07:01:55 PM »
Ghost,

Attached is the pictorial representation with calculation regarding 3 phase and single phase generator.

The formula for 3 phase generator is: Kw = 1.732 x  Voltage  x  Current  x  0.8 P.F. /  1000

                                                      Current =  Kw  x  1000 /  Voltage  x  1.732  x  0.8 P.F.


The formula for single phase generator is: Kw = voltage  x  current  x  0.8 P.F. / 1000

                                                            Current = Kw  x 1000 / Voltage  x 0.8 P.F.

The difference between the two is that the  single phase do have higher current load against 3 phase generator, which definitely affects the size of the cables. The big difference can be seen in larger capacity generator.

Line to line voltage is equal to actual generator rating, while line to neutral voltage is equal to line voltage divided by 1.732.

Example: L1 - L2 =  230V

              L1 - N = 132V


Hope this help...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 02:19:47 PM by Angel_09 »

Offline ghost

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2010, 09:10:14 PM »
Angel_09
   Thanks again bro, your explanation helps a lot.

Angel_09

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2010, 10:42:58 AM »
The most common problem of pumps used in treasure hunting is the gradual decrease of water output when use continously. In submersible pump, this happens when solid matters is suck together with water. This solid mixed with water became viscous liquid and offers great resistance between fixed vanes and impeller, thus eroding both surfaces. This liquid which became as "grinding compound" damaging these surfaces, thus increasing the clearance between fixed vanes and impeller which resulted in decreased water output.

In some aspect, unmonitored clogging in the suction side of the pump will reduce the flow of water; while increasing the running current of the pump which triggers the increase of temperature of the coil winding and is the main reason of burning out of the coil.
To correct this problem,  strainer is a must especially if the pump is used in maintaining the water level during digging.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 10:50:52 AM by Angel_09 »

Offline ghost

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Re: Water pumps use in treasure hunting.
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2010, 10:53:59 AM »
I agree with you Angel09, thats why my subpump burnt and a change in oil seal bearing due to the viscous liquid being pump at almost the maximum height required, and cost a lot on rewinding and repair.